Worth a Look

Got These Yet?

Tarot Temptations

-

Copyright Notice

  • The posts, articles, and comments found on TheTarotChannel.com belong exclusively to the authors who contributed them.

    Linking to our pages delights us. Incorporating a short quote or two in your own article is cool, too, as long as you let folks know where you got the material.

    Remember, though: copying or re-using this material without permission is stealing, pure and simple. You can avoid some really nasty karma (and possible legal action) by doing the right thing ... and asking before taking.

    Or, for those who prefer legalese: All posts on TheTarotChannel.com are copyright (c) 2007 by their respective authors. All rights are reserved. Unauthorized use without written permission of the author is prohibited by law.

    Please send all rights inquiries to mark@hismailbox.com. Thanks!

« West Milford Woman Sees Tarot as a "Travesty" | Main | Decks in Progress: The Mystic Dreams Tarot »

August 10, 2007

Comments

Matt

[quote=Mark]Just out of curiosity, Matt: in your opinion, what would a "successful" combination of all three traditions incorporate? (snip) What would your solution look like, overall?[/quote]

Well, as I said in my first entry, I know designing a deck like this is a particularly difficult and thankless task, but I personally believe a good (or at least a better) solution would have been a trumps-only deck, because the suit cards of the three deck traditions are just UTTERLY irreconcilable, perhaps with the exception of the aces. I’d make sure every card has direct and clear references to the corresponding cards in the three deck traditions and I’d do my very best not to over-represent one of them. Numbering and titling would be trickier, but overall I’d try to go with those that appear in at least two of the three decks.

[quote=Lee]I don't believe Mark or anyone else has claimed that the Lo Scarabeo Tarot contains elements from RWS, Thoth, and Marseille in exactly equal proportions.[/quote]

The deck is claimed to "blend cohesively the three traditions", to be the point in which "the three great magical traditions of the West meet", to "unify the distinctive symbolic vocabulary of [the three traditions]", to provide "an excellent foundation for moving on to [any of the three traditions]", and each card is said to "[draw] together elements from [the three traditions]", so I honestly don’t think I’m wrong to except this deck not to be so overtly based on the RWS and to largely ignore the Tarot de Marseille.

The claim that the Lo Scarabeo is an excellent foundation for the Tarot de Marseille is rather outrageous, actually – the differences in numbering, titling and illustrations (the pips!) are VAST. Same with the Thoth, as far as I can see.

Lee Bursten

But Matt, making a tarot deck is a creative act. It's not an industrial recipe. You're describing a Swords approach. A work of art requires Coins and Batons too... and especially Cups.

The idea of omitting suit cards doesn't make sense to me. It would make more sense if one of the three decks used was the Wirth, since the Wirth didn't have suit cards. But since the RWS, Thoth, and Marseille all have suit cards, I can't imagine why a deck which amalgamates elements from all three should omit them.

For the trumps, let's look at a single card as an example and compare the four versions (LS Tarot, RWS, Thoth, and Marseille) and see if there are clearly distinguishable elements of all three in the LST. I've chosen the Chariot. I've got all four versions in front of me (for the LST and the Thoth, I'm looking at computer scans. I won't be receiving the LST until probably November, and I divested myself of all the copies I owned of the Thoth deck when I discovered certain things about Crowley that made it impossible for me to continue owning them).

So let's start with the Thoth. The only elements in the LST Chariot that I can see as deriving from the Thoth card are the emphasis on Cancer (i.e. the crab on the front of the LST chariot and the crab at the top of the Thoth charioteer's helmet), and the cup in the hand of the LST charioteer (I believe I recall reading somewhere that the round object being held by the Thoth charioteer is a cup, tilted so the viewer sees it from the top).

From the RWS Chariot we get the white stars on the blue canopy. I can't see anything else on the LST Chariot that comes exclusively from the RWS, although keep in mind I'm only looking at a scan of the LTS card.

There are several elements on the LST card that come from both RWS and Marseille (naturally enough, since the RWS itself derives from the Marseille), for example the the charioteer's armor, the staff he holds in his right hand, the moon faces on the shoulders, the crown.

There is one element that I can see on the LST Chariot which come exclusively from the Marseille, and that's the animals pulling the chariot being horses.

Please note that many elements from the RWS are missing from the LST, for example the sphinxes, the lingam/yoni, the winged disk, the chariot as a solid block of stone, the city in the background, the yellow sky.

So, judging from this card at least (I don't have time to go through each card for which I have access to a LST scan), the deck does indeed seem to be an amalgation of all three traditions.

I think what you're not taking into account, Matt, is that both the RWS and the Thoth are directly influenced by the Marseille and do to a certain extent represent an embellishment upon the Marseille. Thus, many design elements in both Thoth and RWS will echo elements from the Marseille.

I don't see anything wrong with Lo Scarabeo claiming that the LST is an excellent foundation for moving on to the Marseille. Someone who is very much into the RWS or Thoth or other 20th or 21st century deck, and who may be put off by what many modern readers see as the Marseille's starkness or plainness, could find the LST as a useful bridge to the Marseille, because of its art style (which is more easily accessible to many modern readers) combined with its relative straightforwardness and non-cluttered symbolism.

Also, althouth some tarotists nowadays draw a sharp distinction between the Marseille and later traditions, many people are less eager to build walls and erect barriers between the traditions. To many people, drawing comparisons between traditions is more interesting and fulfilling than choosing one tradition and kicking the others to the curb. So while some people may see a deck combining elements of different traditions as an ungainly mish-mash or as blasphemous, others will view it as a fascinating exercise in comparative tarot. To each their own.

Finally, something you said earlier, Matt, has been haunting me: "It must be difficult for you to bear the responsibility for combining (which to me sounds like more than just being inspired by) three widely divergent traditions..."

As I said earlier in this post, making a deck is a creative act. I can't think of any reason why an artist needs to feel responsible to anything or anyone when they create, except their own artistic integrity. The implication that an artist needs to be respectful or subservient to a "tradition" is a concept that I find a bit chilling.

Matt

Lee and Mark, should be perhaps take this discussion to Aeclectic Tarot? All three of us are members there, and a Forum *would* be much better suited to discuss, to quote, etc.

I'd be happy to reply to the points you made there, Lee. :)

Janet

The Tarot Channel is designed, among other things, to encourage discussion about Tarot.

Not all of us interested in this conversation participate at Aeclectic (for various reasons).

I can follow the quotes and discussion just fine right here...and I'm sure others can, too.

Janet

Erin

Tarot is Tarot, ladies and gentlemen. It is not rocket science. It's just a deck and the person reading it. The rest is just details.

I'm not on Aeclectic (yet), and I want to see where this conversation goes, too.

Mark McElroy

Hi, Matt.

If your "more successful" combination of the three traditions involves dropping the Minors entirely, I suspect you would receive more hate mail from Tarot Fundamentalists than I do. :-)

My point is only this: as long as your more successful combination is merely an idea, it can cavort endlessly in the mellow sunshine of pure intention. It does not have to be practical. It does not have to be complete. It does not have to face criticism.

Once your concept is distilled into an actual deck, all of this changes.

I hope you'll make your own effort, as there's real joy in taking an idea from concept to creation. But this will require a great deal of effort and dedication (and bravery!), and, in the end, very few people are up to such a challenge. (This is why there will always be more critics than creators.)

I created the Lo Scarabeo Tarot with *reading* in mind, and there are secrets concealed in the deck that a casual reviewer simply won't discover. So: I invite you to read with it for a few weeks. You may find you like it!

You may also find that you do not. If this is the case, there are many, many other decks out there, including, of course, any version of the Marseilles you prefer.

I think I shall decline an invitation to join you at Aeclectic for more discussion, as I can't imagine what more I'd have to say on this particular topic. :-)

Good journey to you,
M.

Matt

[quote=Lee]But Matt, making a tarot deck is a creative act. It's not an industrial recipe. You're describing a Swords approach. A work of art requires Coins and Batons too... and especially Cups.[/quote]

Oh, I realise it is a creative act as well, Lee, but it would seem to me that designing a deck like this – one that claims to blend all three traditions cohesively and to offer an excellent foundation for any of the three – explicitly implies a Swords-like approach. It *needs* thought and planning and calculating. Of course there’s also passion and love and fun and creativity involved, but a deck like the Lo Scarabeo would require much more than that IMO. Perhaps it could have prevented mistakes creeping in like the one on the Ace of Pentacles?

[quote=Lee]But since the RWS, Thoth, and Marseille all have suit cards, I can't imagine why a deck which amalgamates elements from all three should omit them.[/quote]

Well, I already told you why I think they should be omitted: the suit cards are utterly irreconcilable, as the Lo Scarabeo Tarot aptly demonstrates. When no middle ground can be reached, IMO it is better to leave the suit cards out all together instead of executing them in an unsatisfactory way, especially because there are loads of trumps-only decks out there anyway.

[quote=Lee]There are several elements on the LST card that come from both RWS and Marseille (naturally enough, since the RWS itself derives from the Marseille)[/quote]

Yes, about that: for me only *direct* references to the Marseille count. If the Lo Scarabeo claims to be based on the Marseille, then indirect symbolism just doesn’t cut it for me. I mean, if it did, then the deck could just as well claim to be based on the Cary Sheet or something.

[quote=Lee]So, judging from this card at least (I don't have time to go through each card for which I have access to a LST scan), the deck does indeed seem to be an amalgation of all three traditions.[/quote]

Yes, The Chariot card has elements from all three traditions, but my criticism of the deck wasn’t directed at The Chariot, it was directed at the deck as a whole (which I understand you haven’t seen yet for yourself?).

[quote=Lee]I don't see anything wrong with Lo Scarabeo claiming that the LST is an excellent foundation for moving on to the Marseille.[/quote]

I find that very very odd. I can’t see how anyone could objectively claim that the Lo Scarabeo prepares tarot enthusiasts for the Tarot de Marseille’s pips, for its titling, for its numbering and for its symbolism. It is absolutely beyond me how you see *nothing in the least* wrong with such a claim.

[quote=Lee]So while some people may see a deck combining elements of different traditions as an ungainly mish-mash or as blasphemous, others will view it as a fascinating exercise in comparative tarot. To each their own.[/quote]

I’m going to assume that statement is directed at me (because your entire entry is), so could you please explain when you got the impression that I have a problem with decks that combine elements from different traditions? What I have a problem with, and I thought I had been clear about that, is that the Lo Scarabeo claims to be a successful combination of the three traditions, to offer an excellent foundation for either of them, yada yada yada, while it is clearly very much based on the RWS and largely ignores the Tarot de Marseille (because I see little *direct* influence).

[quote=Lee] Finally, something you said earlier, Matt, has been haunting me (snip) As I said earlier in this post, making a deck is a creative act. I can't think of any reason why an artist needs to feel responsible to anything or anyone when they create, except their own artistic integrity.[/quote]

Lee, I can’t believe you’d let a statement like that “haunt” you. I kind of see what you’re getting at, but I am firmly convinced that artists have responsibilities to others than themselves. What about the creators of the Native American Tarot and the African American Tarot – or what if a Tarot of the Holocaust was created? See what I mean? The Lo Scarabeo Tarot too has responsibilities to its users, namely the *very important* responsibility to live up to what it promises to be!

Lee Bursten

Well, I don't think there's much point in continuing this any further. I know I've made the points I want to make, and anything further would simply be going round and round to no purpose.

You're absolutely right, I don't have the deck yet (it's on order). I thought I had made that abundantly clear.

If your purpose was to register your opinions about the Lo Scarabeo Tarot, I think you've done that.

Freesparrow

"Ah, "freesparrow," an instantly recognizable voice from the past (albeit with a new name). Brings back fond memories!" (Barbara Moore)

Hey Barbara, I don't know "who" you think but am pleased that you have fond memories [smiles].

If you read my later post you can see that I withdrew from my first response. It doesn't really matter to me. I had not seen all the cards and did react too quickly.

I wish Lo Scarabeo well. Some of their decks are amongst my favourites. :).

Freesparrow

And I wish Mark well also!

Holding discussions in this format is a little different.

I think my first reaction was like that of someone who really like the old ceramic phones and struggles with the latest model cell phone.

Both have a place. What one uses is simply a matter of preference.

frank hall

I just purchased this deck from Borders, Oct.7. It seems to me that it is an act of courageous synthesis, an exploration of the intersection of 3 symbolic/artistic streams.Obviously, it is not made to formula: 1/3 &1/3 &1/3 Marselles, Waite-Smith, Crowley-Harris. But its bright and fluid watercolors and its weave of esoteric windows into beauty-truth make it worthy of respect, maybe even reverence. Now I'm going to test its meditative, intuitive, oracular patterns of meaning.Rather than pre-judge innovative results as a new hippogriff, like Columbus(only as a humble explorer)I will sail into the unknown, for a new passageway into Tarot.

Erin

Well, I said I would buy the deck if I saw it, and I did. It's interesting. The deck looks very surreal (with some distracting nudity on the Six of Cups but that's ok.) I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I think after some study and usage, it will be fine. I think the mixture of decks leans towards the RWS, but I really don't know how you could mix everything equally anyway. I give everybody involved in making this deck a round of applause and a big Thank You! (I never would have thought to do this!)

Annie

I, too, have been wondering about the 6 of Cups. Will there ever be a "companion book" to go with this deck? I like the deck immensely, but am unsure of what you were thinking when scripting some of the cards. I read intuitively so mostly that's okay. But I do wonder on some ... say, for argument's sake, the 6 of Cups. Could you please address this? Seriously - I would appreciate it. :)

Erin

I'd also like to know who the two shadowy people talking in the corner of the Strength card are and why they are there. Are they talking about the Strength figure?
Any explanations is appreciated.

I really like this deck, now that I'm used to it, and it works well for readings.

Dear Mark

Dear Mark,
Congratulations. This is a marvelous deck. It will, undoubtedly, be my primary deck (and I own many). Can we expect a book with your thoughts regarding each card?
Sincerely,
Ron

Casey

I received a copy of Lo Scarabeo Tarot for Christmas and I admit, I was a little worried at first. I prefer my tarot cards brighter and louder, and I wondered if I'd ever use the deck. Then I did some Googling and found that you were involved in their creation, Mark. I've always admired your work and your way of explaining the complexities of tarot in such easy-to-read and understand terms. I will certainly give Lo Scarabeo a try now! Sitting down with the LWB and will try a reading soon!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment